Baby Boy Survives Nearly Two Days After Failed Abortion

Of course you don't. Far better to close your eyes to reality than to realize you support the killing of innocent babies. Keep those eyes shut tight now!

Or, Grandma, it could be that we don't accept, at face value, incredible or extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.

Currently, the only people claiming that the baby was alive were members of the clergy -- not historically renowned for their collective trustworthiness.

Code, go back and read the story, pay special attention to:

Father Antonio Martello said he found the 22-week-old wrapped in a sheet with his umbilical cord still attached. Martello immediately alerted doctors, who then transported the infant to a neo-natal unit, but it was too late. The baby boy died the next day.

Italian police are now investigating the case as a homicide because infanticide is illegal in Italy.

According to the report, the law states that doctors had an obligation to try to preserve the life of the child once he had survived the abortion.

An inquiry into the conduct of the hospital staff is also being considered by the Italian government

I don't know about anyone else, but it looks to me like the baby was in a neonatal icu for at least a day. Also, the police are investigating it as a homicide. I think that is a few more people than "members of the clergy" are making the claim.

Grandma - I'm well aware of the reality of abortion, I am just more concerned about the lving, breathing, vulnerable woman making the choice.

1. I am personally against late term abortion.

2. If there wasn't so much nastiness about allowing a woman to choose, late term abortions would be greatly reduced because the women wouldn't spend so much time agonizing over the decision they know to be right for themselves.

3. This story has "fishy" written all over it - doctors just throw the baby in an alley wrapped in a sheet? A priest comes outside to pray by the baby? Why would doctors do that knowing it would make it very likely to be found - you think these doctors are just evil and went to medical school so they could abort babies? How would the priest know this baby was out there?

Sorry, I simply don't buy it at this point and your attempt to shame me like you would a woman in the midst of a difficult decision didn't work.

What is the relevancy here in this country?

his story has "fishy" written all over it - doctors just throw the baby in an alley wrapped in a sheet?

Probably thought the baby was dead, or that it would die in a matter of minutes. I doubt they would have put it outside if they thought it would still be alive 20 hours later, that poor baby, imagine the suffering it went through.

A priest comes outside to pray by the baby?

"The infant, who was left to die by doctors following the procedure, was discovered by a priest who had gone to pray beside the body"

Why wouldn't a priest pray for the soul of this poor child, doomed? Maybe he's one of those priest's who stays to comfort the people who go in there. I'm sure he felt compassion for the murdered infant; which is more than can be said for the child's heartless mother, and the doctors performing the procedure.

Probably thought the baby was dead, or that it would die in a matter of minutes. I doubt they would have put it outside if they thought it would still be alive 20 hours later, that poor baby, imagine the suffering it went through.

You honestly think trained doctors said "ah, well, he'll die in a few minutes"?

It is crazy to think a fetus could live for 20 hours without its cord cut, nose and mouth cleared, and undeveloped lungs and heart.

I don't think the fetus suffered because I don't believe this story for one second. The more I think about it, the less I believe it is even plausible.

You honestly think trained doctors said "ah, well, he'll die in a few minutes"?

Well doomed, maybe they do so many that they just didn't care?

It is crazy to think a fetus could live for 20 hours without its cord cut, nose and mouth cleared, and undeveloped lungs and heart.

Stranger things have happen, and this might explain WHY the "trained doctors" tossed the infant in the trash thinking it would die quickly.

I don't think the fetus suffered because I don't believe this story for one second. The more I think about it, the less I believe it is even plausible.

Just because YOU don't believe it, doesn't make it so.

Well, doomed. It is all over the news. If it is not true, you will find out soon enough. Doubt the hospital, police and Italian government are in on the hoax.

By the way, the mother aborted because the baby had a cleft palate. Cleft palate - well of course this little angel wasn't fit to live! There are no surgeries to correct a cleft palate! Garbage, that is what the mother of this baby is - nothing more than garbage!

Actually, Youngatheart, there are surgeries to correct cleft palate! This little one could have had the surgery and been able to live a normal life.

I know Bonnie - I'm sorry my sarcasm didn't come through clearly :o)

Lol, sorry:)

Robyn, heartless mother? How dare you judge. Who are YOU to judge? You have no idea where this woman came from, and the situation behind her decisions.

Any woman who MURDERS her helpless child is heartless to me, if the description bothers you, GOOD, it should.

Where's your compassion for the dead baby, AM?

AM - calling this woman a heartless mother is not a judgment, it is a fact. Calling it like it is. A judgment would be "this heartless mother is going to hell". Don't think she said that.

The part that doesn't make sense is disposing of medical waste that way . Sorry, but the results of an abortion would be considered "medical waste" and would be in a biohazard bag not wrapped in a sheet and left out in an alley where people were praying over it. The philosophy that allows for abortion does not allow for recognizing the fetus as a person. That is the point at which the story ceases to ring true.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe this story. It sounds like pro-life propaganda

Sorry but there's obviously enough DOCUMENTATION for Italy to investigate it as a homicide.

Don't be like those birthers now! ;)

Sorry but there's obviously enough DOCUMENTATION for Italy to investigate it as a homicide.

Just like in the US, family services are required to investigate any suggestions of child abuse, as it should be.

I suspend judgement until their reports are concluded, for now, I lean towards LIE!

"If the news turns out to be true..."the ministry said in a statement released Monday.

They apparently have their own doubts as well.

Wow, it is a sad day when people feel absolutely no pity for a poor baby that was left to die alone - making up all kinds of excuses in the process! Have you no shame and pity? Those of you who are too busy doing that rather than seeing the tragedy of this story tells me everything I need to know about you. It is scary to think that there are people like that in our country. God forgive us!

Wow, it is a sad day when people feel absolutely no pity for a poor baby that was left to die alone

They probably feel sorry for the "mother" (I use that term loosely) and the "doctor" (again, used loosely).

youngatheartgrandma,

for an abortion to have occurred this late in the pregnancy to me suggests an extreme emergency to likely save the mother's life. I would withhold judgment about the abortion until the story is better understood and validated. However, leaving a premature baby to lie there and die is about as inhumane and cruel as one could be. This if it happened should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

robynlewistexas

said for the child's heartless mother, and the doctors performing the procedure

You are condemning the mother before knowing the actual facts. An abortion performed this late would, I think, have had a medical urgency and necessity attached to it. I would wait to toss out judgement of the abortion until you know the facts. Leaving the baby to die if born alive is a whole different thing. That was criminal if it happened and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

for an abortion to have occurred this late in the pregnancy to me suggests an extreme emergency to likely save the mother's life

If you actually read the article you would have seen that this mother decided to abort when she found out that the child would be born with cleft palette....something that is fixable with surgery. It's like aborting a child for having a club foot.

"You aren't going to be born absolutely perfect and beautiful? Well then...pffft, I don't want you anymore."

If YOU actually read the story, the baby with the cleft palett was the one taken off life support, not theone in this story. This story is, so far, being investigated as the officials have no report. All they have is a news media story.

The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans suggested that her baby was disabled.

Baby that survived abortion rejected for 'cleft lip' different story.

It's nice how those who support abortion always seem to think these people abort "to save the mother's life".

In the case of the baby with the cleft lip we have a perfect example of how this is NOT the case and THAT was what I was referring to in my comment 2.23 since the story about that baby with the cleft lip has also been discussed in connection to this story and IS linked at the bottom of the seeded article and therefore a part of the overall topic.

Thank you for playing.

whatever, it was not being discussed here.

cleft palate abortion is fine if done before three months in the united states, but i do not think that they can detect it that early.

I totally agree with you!

But according to pro-abortionists this is NOT a real baby; only a blob of tissue; a parasite; it's not even a HUMAN to these people so it doesn't count.

They've even deluded themselves into thinking these innocent babies can't feel pain!

Yep...amazing to me.

That's what I heard from everyone durng my third pregnancy...you gotta get rid of that thing...it is just a blob of tissue, it isn't really a person, ad nauseum...

I guarantee, he is most certainly a person! He isn't a blob of tissue, or a puppy, or a kitty, or anything like that. He is a real, live person, just as he was meant to be...he just had to be allowed to grow enough to be born to the outside world.

My other two were humans too:) They grew, kicked and punched as they hung out in my womb, and when they were ready to break free from Mama's control, they were born...they were perfectly formed little people...ready to grow and change into bigger people...

What happens if we decide that little kids shouldn't be allowed to live, cause you know, they are a pain at times. Messy, disobedient, hard to handle, etc...should we decide they are parasites and should also be put to death, cause after all, they aren't very much human, cause they aren't real big or anything???

Does the 2005-related story say when the three attempts were made? It'd be improbable that they were all tried during the 24th week. It'd be much more probable that the abortion attempts were made weeks apart. More importantly, I can't find the report of the story prior to this week.

So far, has anyone not directly involved with the bishop said that the baby was alive after the attempted abortion?

Code, I would say if they are looking into the conduct of the hospital staff, someone saw something. It says he took the baby to a neonatal intensive care unit where the baby died later. So I am guessing a whole lot of people saw it.

or a puppy, or a kitty,

If they were one of these, or maybe a tree, you'd be chastised for even thinking about harming them, a human fetus...not so much. What a sad society we live in.

You are so right RT8!

No no no there has to be more to the story, a 22 week fetus would not last long without being cared for as a premature birth. (IRDS) is caused by lack of surfactant, commonly suffered by premature babies born before 28-32 weeks of gestation.

The fetus would have suffocated really quick not having its airway cleared and the lack of surfactant.

This seem to be a tall tale. Its not possible, hypothermia also would have killed the fetus.

Are they sure about the time line.

Grandma, but the other hospital is not named (it just says a Cosenza hospital), nor is a spokesman for the other hospital even interviewed. There would be an ambulance company, crew, neonatal specialists, and spokesman all over the place, if the journalist had any credibility. Maybe foreign press work differently.

If it happened, there'd be quite a number of witnesses. It would be strange for the claim for transport to another hospital to be made when none such were to have happened (it's an unusual thing to make up -- adds plausibility, in my mind).

You would think that this would happen all the time in America, with our abortion rate. Yet Italy seems to claim 3 of them in a year.

Of course, I realize that other places (countries) have different restrictions and conventions on the rights and privacy of the accused, so I am not surprised the mother or primary doctors remain unidentified.

The baby was IN THE HOSPITAL when the priest found him. He pulled an alarm and a medical team came. Like I said earlier, this is all over the news, if it isn't true, you will find out soon.

Good God, stop calling them "IT!" You sound like little kids playing "TAG!"

I didn't call that precious baby boy an "it" did I? (when I said a whole lot of people saw it, I meant it as in saw it happen.)

I didn't see an IT referring to the fetus/baby/victim at all, but I might have missed it.

friend request sent, granny!

I don't think late term abortions are performed in this country unless there is a medical reason that is extremely valid. And as far as late term abortions, where is your outcry at the fathers who abort their baby during pregnancy, after delivery, three months after delivery and 3 years or anytime? Abandonment is abortion the easy way. However, the result can be just as deadly, tortuous and sad. A child may suffer through repeated 'abortions' by the father and the effect is always harmful. Unless you condemn and outlaw abortions by the father so that he must be there as a healthy, willing parent financially, emotionally, and physcially for the rest of his life, then you can talk about eliminating a woman's freedom to abort an unwanted pregnancy also. The reality is that the choice to reproduce comes at the moment sex is decided upon. Even with super birth control, pregnancy does still happen. However, that is a choice made by both the woman and the man, not just the woman. It is she that cannot escape the reponsibility of that decision while the man escapes without any responsibility quite easily. Change that. Only then can you look at illegalizing an abortion option for the woman.

However, that is a choice made by both the woman and the man, not just the woman.

True, but as science has not been able to figure out a way for a man to carry (as they've been able to create male sperm cells from female bone tissue), we get no say on whether we'd like the baby to be carried to term.

where is your outcry at the fathers who abort their baby during pregnancy, after delivery, three months after delivery and 3 years or anytime? Abandonment is abortion the easy way.

And yes, I have nothing but disgust for a father that walks on his responsibility to his children that he chose to have.

As noted in #10.4, there's enough anger to go around...trust me.

Shawn, so until a man can carry and a woman can impregnate you get no say.

You have a good attitude. We need more men to face their responsibility.

I think Shawn is saying that women have no need for men, except to provide for the necessities of daily providence (rent, food, clothing, warmth). I once told a young fella that someday science might make it possable for two FELLAS to make a baby. We aren't there yet.

It has been allowed in this country that a father could have a bastard child sterilized, how does this fact compare to abortion (long after full term birth)?

Looks that way.

Beleive me, I'm NOT for late term abortions and would rather there be no NEED for the 1st trimester abortions either, BUT most of the people who go for those later term abortions do it because there is an issue with the fetus (no brain or whatever)or the mother's life is in danger. I am not saying that ther is NEVER a late term for the mom's convience. Don't KNOW any proven cases but I wouldn't doubt they happen.
I have more of a problem with an ass hole who hates abortion so much he would kill someone who deals with women in the worse time of their lives, who are making a tragic choice with compassion.

or the baby has cleft palette ?

rachelm, I am aware that some women can't handle having a "damaged" child and there aren't enough people out there to adopt all the "damaged" babies out there. BUT to punish those who do it for convienience, we are punishing those who do it for a more valid and heartbreaking reasons! Still, IT isn't ANY of our BUSINESS!!! IT is between the woman, her Dr and if SHE chooses, her family and religious community. NOT OURS!

I am aware that some women can't handle having a "damaged" child

And, of course, as usual there is no concern about the father's decision to abort (abandon) his baby which he can do without being held responsible at any time during the child's life. If the people who rail against abortion really truely cared about the baby's life, they would be outraged at the abortions carried out by fathers and be insisting on change and responsibility to the hilt. However, the desire for that baby to live and have any kind of life for many pro-lifers seems to stop at birth. In fact after birth, are not right wingers for starving them to punish them for being born in poverty? Pro-choice looks at all the issues involved and works toward a solution. There is no one who is pro-choice that wants an abortion to happen- ever. However, pro-choicers are just more realistic about life and factors after birth. The problem of abortion is not some bad souless woman deciding to 'kill' her baby. The missing word in there hints at the true issue- the bad souless father deciding to abort his baby is not even acknowledged or required to accept responsibility for the life he helped to create.

mrsrachelm, this baby did not have a cleft palet. That was another case.

And, of course, as usual there is no concern about the father's decision to abort (abandon) his baby which he can do without being held responsible at any time during the child's life.

If this seed and article were about that topic I would be addressing it. It's not and so continuing to bring that up seems a wee bit like deflection and a lot off topic.

I can't understand why a woman might feel she needed to abort a baby...but then, I've never been in a position to HAVE to ask that question of myself.

""I just don't understand...""

Maybe because this story is made up? Is that not a possibility?

I have. When I was 18 I got pregnant, and the father - and my family - all thought it would be best to have an abortion. And I agreed. I couldn't do it though. Today my daughter is almost 27, she gave me one of my beautiful grandsons, and she has a life and friends and people love her. If I had an abortion, she would not have existed. That is why I am so opposed, and why I can not comprehend how anyone can think that an unborn baby isn't a life.

weRdoomed - that seems to be the consensus of those who feel it is ok to brutally kill unborn babies. It has to be easier to pretend horrors like this don't exist. Whether it is a true story or not remains to be seen I suppose. But just because you say it is made up, doesn't mean it is.

oh, and the "I just don't understand" was in reference to people killing babies, not to this story in particular.

Granny, THIS granny would prefer to see unwanted pregnacies NOT happen. BUT we wouldn't seek to judge those who decide NOT to become mothers. IT IS AND SHOULD BE their choice and if they want the council of their family and church leaders. NONE OF US have any damn business butting in on that personal matter!
I would rather it be safe and clinically done than the alternitive that would happen if the NO CHOICERS succeed in making it illegal. But of course, their just a little preggers daughters would be able to get a correcting procedure if needed!

I will tell you what Kim - you decide what is YOUR business and don't try to tell me what is or is not my business! It IS MY BUSINESS if an innocent baby is being brutally killed, and if his/her mother won't protect that precious angel, I will do everything within my power to try and protect him/her myself. If those of us who treasure innocent life win this fight, then the world will be a better place. If not, we can say we tried and will continue to fight fight fight. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. Simple. It amazes me how many people just don't get that. A woman who would kill her baby is no less a killer than someone who walked up to you or I and shot us in the head. In fact, it is worse because at least you or I have a fighting chance of protecting ourselves. Would you not call someone who shot another in the head a killer? Saying someone is a killer is not a judgement, a judgement is telling that person what his/her punishment is going to be. That will not be up to me, and I have enough to answer for myself. What it is, is a statement that I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that an unborn child is a human being and I will do what I can to save his/her precious life.

What it is, is a statement that I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that an unborn child is a human being and I will do what I can to save his/her precious life.

Oh more crying without paying to support that child to adulthood what a crock.

It IS MY BUSINESS if an innocent baby is being brutally killed, and if his/her mother won't protect that precious angel, I will do everything within my power to try and protect him/her myself.

I agree 100%. But if a mother doesn't want a fetus using her body agianst her will that is another story.

If those of us who treasure innocent life win this fight, then the world will be a better place.

Glad you have a crystal ball. Hey, whats the lotto numbers going to be for tomorrow night?

If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. Simple.

LMAO Did you forget your sarcasm tag? You know, if there were no unwanted pregnancies there would be no abortion. I know abortions are just such awesome experiences to have that women get pregnant on purpose just to see what all the fun is about

A woman who would kill her baby is no less a killer than someone who walked up to you or I and shot us in the head.

You are right. We are no different from unconscious unviable parasitic fetuses. LOL

It's not rocket science people: if you don't want an "unplanned pregnancy" keep your friggin, dang legs together...oh, that's right...sex is just recreation any more, I forgot.

So, you have your "recreation", you get "oops" pregnant, and it's just not "convenient" for you or you don't have the resources to take care of a baby...hello, it's called poor planning and lack of forethought. People are way to interested in instant gratification in our world.

like I said it's not rocket science...

Yeah because we all know how realistic abstinence is, especially for married people like me. Humans are hard wired to have sex. Its nature. We don't have all those hormones for nothing you know. Sex is also healthy for relationships.

People are allowed to have sex for pleasure and pleasure only, get used to it.

Like I said, its unrealistic.

I have. When I was 18 I got pregnant, and the father - and my family - all thought it would be best to have an abortion.

and how do you feel about these folks now?

This story/article cannot be true, the child at 22 weeks would not have survived. I do not support late term abortions except in very extreme cases. With the laws in Italy being as strict as they are, I cannot imagine that the doctor would leave this child for the authorities to find. the story is sad yes, but I don't believe it to be true.

As one married woman to another, if you do not want children there are ways to prevent it permanently. You can have your tube tied or he can get "snipped". By NOT doing either of these measures you are not acting responsibly as a married couple who do not want children.

Actually, I can not find a doctor to tie my tubes until I am in my late thirties. My husband is getting snipped in a few months. We had a hard time finding a doctor to do it to a man who has no children. He was very against getting snipped at first because some guy he worked with told him it will make him lose his sex drive because that is what happened to him. But after doing research he has come to terms with it.

However, married people who want kids someday but not at the current time shouldn't be expected to undergo sterilization.

Well, Lana, as an unmarried woman all of my life, I understood that there were consequences for my actions. I understood that if I didn't want to get pregnant, I shouldn't engage in the practice of procreation. To me that just seems to be the responsible thing.

Additionally, there are other methods of birth control, you know, and as one who has counseled hundreds of teenage girls on the subject, they are like you - they think it is recreational. And too many of them have found themselves pregnant, the "father" has left them and moved on to the next victim, and they think that it is the gubberments job to birth them, feed them, educate them, doctor them. They come to me with their sad story..."he said he loved me"...and here they are 15 and up ,a mere child herself, now having to be responsible with another life growing inside her own. Her life and childhood is over. Why in the world do you think our welfare roles are burgeoning?

I know what you are going to say - yes, that's why abortion should be legal: they are not capable of taking care of a child. So, the parent(s) get to sentence a baby to death because they were not responsible for their own actions? How wrong is that? A totally innocent creation of life gone because of the irresponsibility of a few moments of "pleasure" unprotected.

It is truly amazing the ways people justify their irresponsible actions.

Well, Lana, as an unmarried woman all of my life, I understood that there were consequences for my actions

So do I. I understand that my husband and I's sexual relations can lead to an unwanted pregnancy that will lead to an abortion.

I understood that if I didn't want to get pregnant, I shouldn't engage in the practice of procreation. To me that just seems to be the responsible thing.

I understand that if I don't want to get pregnant we will both use birth control. And if I get pregnant I will get an abortion. To me that just seems to be the responsible thing.

Oh I know many girls who treat procreation like recreation. Thats right, not just sex as recreation, also procreation. They have kids so they can get on HUD and move out of mommy and daddys house into their own apartment in the projects with their boyfriend and new baby. They want to be all grown up.

So, the parent(s) get to sentence a baby to death because they were not responsible for their own actions?

Its not a baby yet and yes the woman should not be forced to sustain a fetus inside her body against her will. Like I said before, not having a kid you neither want nor can afford can be being responsible for your own actions. After all the price of that abortion is coming out of pocket you know.

A totally innocent creation of life gone because of the irresponsibility of a few moments of "pleasure" unprotected.

Lets not generalize. Not all abortions are because of unprotected sex. I also fail to see how an unconscious parasitic embryo/fetus can be innocent. It doesn't have the ability to be either guilty nor innocent.

vol fan, Lana is married. Your choice to forgo sex is your own personal choice and not what is asked of us as humans or children of god or whatever. We have certainly seen the consequences of abstinence on the priests.

You do realize that the favored abortionists term for a baby of "a parasite" is totally biologically incorrect, I hope? Or is it just a nice new terminology to use regardless of what it really means truthfully so as to distance oneself from the more obvious truth?

parasite noun
/ˈpær.ə.saɪt/
/ˈper-/ [C]
•
an animal or plant that lives on or in another animal or plant of a different type and feeds from it

An unborn child is not a parasite by any medically or biologically accepted definition for the simple reason that it is NOT of a different type than it's host. In other words...The baby is by definition a HUMAN.

You do realize that the favored abortionists term for a baby of "a parasite" is totally biologically incorrect, I hope?

You do realize that is complete and utter bull, I hope? Nice way to pick and choose around the definitions you see fit.

par·a·site (pr-st) KEY

NOUN:

1. Biology An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
2. 1. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
   2. One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.
3. A professional dinner guest, especially in ancient Greece.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/parasite

Parasite: An organism that lives in or on and takes its nourishment from another organism. A parasite cannot live independently.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4769

And this one below just has so many definitions. You will notice they all resemble my definition.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/parasite

LOL Did you even notice these three (highlighted) words in the definition you supplied:

on or in a different organism

You just supported what I originally said! See that? " A DIFFERENT ORGANISM" Let me reiterate...the word was "DIFFERENT" organism.

LOL

Hi Mule, how are you? Hope you are doing well. How's the work down there? Not much happening here. I read your story on your column about your parents a few weeks ago- sort of mirrors my situation. Yesterday was two years my dad has been gone. I sat down last night and wrote a piece about the last gift he gave me before he died. It was therapeutic for me. Anyway, back to the topic, sorry...Now,

We have certainly seen the consequences of abstinence on the priests

That's painting with a pretty broad stroke there. Not all are pedophiles, some are...shamefully.

Oh I know many girls who treat procreation like recreation. Thats right, not just sex as recreation, also procreation. They have kids so they can get on HUD and move out of mommy and daddys house into their own apartment in the projects with their boyfriend and new baby. They want to be all grown up.

yup, Lana, you are right, and I meant to mention that but got sidetracked. That's is a true statement too. And a frequent stupid decision on their part.

parasitic embryo/fetus can be innocent.

Did the developing baby have any say or part in being in a womb? No, it did not; it was the result of the actions of two other people, thus it is an innocent (by the very definition) developing human life. The term "fetus" and now "parasitic embryo" is an effort to dehumanize what it is growing inside a mother's womb, maybe to make it more palatable to do whatever...

Lana and Mule, we will just have to disagree on this. You will answer for your actions, as I will answer for mine.

You just supported what I originally said! See that? " A DIFFERENT ORGANISM" Let me reiterate...the word was "DIFFERENT" organism.

Wow. That is NOT what you said at all. Look up at your post again (or look below) to check your words and try denying it agian.

an animal or plant that lives on or in another animal or plant of a different type and feeds from it

of a different type.hhmm... I don't see anywhere in any of those definitions where the host must be a different type of organism. A different organism of course because a parasite can not feed off itself. It can not be its own host. I am a different organism than you. But if I latched onto you and started using your body for all nutrients and sustenance then I would indeed be a parasite.

Did the developing baby have any say or part in being in a womb?

It had just about as much say as the woman had letting it attach onto her womb. She couldn't tell it not to and it couldn't stop from doing it.

it was the result of the actions of two other people, thus it is an innocent (by the very definition) developing human life.

I guess I just can't see how something incapable of guilt can be innocent. Maybe I set my standards too high. However, I do think that using someones body aginst their will, consciously or not, is not very innocent.

The term "fetus" and now "parasitic embryo" is an effort to dehumanize what it is growing inside a mother's womb, maybe to make it more palatable to do whatever...

No its not that at all. I prefer medical terms instead of emotional ones. It really is a parasitic embryo... offensive maybe to some, but it shouldn't be. We should except it for what it is.

It is basic biology. A parasite is usually of a different species.

Not always...like in the case of pregnancy lol

An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

Then by biological definition...most welfare recipients would also legitimately be considered parasites - I always wanted to be able to note it with a sense of biological accuracy and with that being the definition, it's apparently quite true.

When something is growing inside of you and you don't want it there, it doesn't matter how it came to be. It becomes an invader, an alien, a fast growing tumor that is going to kill you if you don't get it out of there. It takes over your life, your mind, overwhelms you with insane thoughts of how to remove it. If I can't get it out I'm gonna kill myself! And so she does.

vol fan, I'll look for your story.

When something is growing inside of you and you don't want it there, it doesn't matter how it came to be. It becomes an invader, an alien, a fast growing tumor that is going to kill you if you don't get it out of there.

And that would be a fairly solid definition of America's illegal immigrant status....it's great how quickly we're able to throw paintbrush-style definitions on everything.

I remember 2 years ago when my gall bladder turned on me. The day I met with the surgeon I asked if he could take it out there and then. I didn't need to be put under. This was an enemy attacking from the inside. All I could think of was get it out or I will.

Shawn, I was trying to be polite. My true feelings are much more gruesome as are other women who feel trapped in pregnancy.

Lana, ROFL.....I think you know you're grasping at straws here to try to redefine a long held biological definition. C'mon now. Even another poster pointed it out and all you came up with was:

Not always...like in the case of pregnancy lol

Seriously now, lol, it's time to fold your hand and leave the table on this little side topic.

I know I have no need to further this even if you do, rofl.

Shawn, I was trying to be polite. My true feelings are much more gruesome as are other women who feel trapped in pregnancy.

And trust me Missouri Mule...I was being VERY polite with respect to the term I would use for women that think to slaughter prenatal infants as a method of birth control when an "oops" occurs (or if they decide that it may be "just too hard").

And from an interesting site I stumbled upon...imagine what the world would be like if some of these people were selfishly murdered because life would have been just "too hard" instead of being taken to term and then put up for adoption:

http://celebrities.adoption.com/famous/adoptee-biographies.html

Andy Berlin
Anthony Williams
Aristotle
Art Linkletter
Bo Diddley
Buffy Sainte-Marie
Carl-Theodor Dreyer
Charlotte Anne Lopez
Christina Crawford
Clarissa Pinkola Estes
Crazy Horse
Dan O'Brien
Daunte Culpepper
Dave Thomas
Debbie Harry
D.M.C.
Edgar Allan Poe
Edward Albee
Eleanor Roosevelt
Eric Dickerson
Faith Daniels
Faith Hill
Freddie Bartholomew
George Washington Carver
Greg Louganis
James MacArthur
James Michener
Jean Jacques Rousseau
Jesse Jackson
Jett Williams
Jim Palmer
John J. Audubon
John Hancock
John Lennon
Langston Hughes
Larry Ellison
Lee Majors
Leo Tolstoy
Les Brown
Lynnette Cole
Malcolm X
Mark Acre
Matthew Laborteaux
Melissa Gilbert
Michael Reagan
Moses
Nancy Reagan
Nat King Cole
Nelson Mandela
Patrick Labyorteaux
Peter and Kitty Carruthers
President Gerald Ford
President William Clinton
Priscilla Presley
Ray Liotta
Reno
Sarah McLachlan
Scott Hamilton
Sen. Paull H. Shin
Sen. Robert Byrd
Steve Jobs
Surya Bonaly
Tim Green
Tim McGraw
Tom Monaghan
Tommy Davidson
Victoria Rowell
Wilson Riles

I'm sure there is a list of equally bad people including everyone's favorite, Hitler. What I was refering to is that some women get so despirate as to "go mad" and try to harm or remove the fetus because they just can't have it there any more. I know the stories from before abortion was legal. There are those who call it murder and I do understand their point of view. Their are those who have to chose what is best for the living. It is a matter of survival.

We won't agree, Shawn, so there is no point really in taking this further. You have some good qualities. I hope you share those in some way as a roll model. :-)

Perhaps a woman who acts as irrationally as the above post should really consider mental health help -- but I would still be glad that woman hadn't been aborted because her mother had found out that she might be mentally overreactionary.

(who knows, they may be able to test for mental health issues someday).

I think you know you're grasping at straws here to try to redefine a long held biological definition.

ME? Oh geez. There really is no furthering the debate with you because I have given you multiple definitions that support mine from muiltple medical sources. I have even seen documentaries that have defined the fetal stage as parasitic so I really can't understand how you are still denying this.

Not always...like in the case of pregnancy lol

Sorry its true man, sorry its true.

It is too bad that you insist that we accept definitions newly designed by people that are in the business of killing people. It never used to be that way. If you take medication, it is in your best interest that I notify you that medications often shorten one's lifespan, especially if you are a partaker of welfare or are a wealthy individual that has a very large trust fund or have some genetic or physical or mental disability.

RuthAnn-595820 #6-32:

Perhaps a woman who acts as irrationally as the above post should really consider mental health help -- but I would still be glad that woman hadn't been aborted because her mother had found out that she might be mentally overreactionary.

(who knows, they may be able to test for mental health issues someday).

That woman? You mean all the millions of women who had illegal abortions?

A baby have a heartbeat in as little as 5 weeks.. but then again.. some people are monsters and could care less.

A baby have a heartbeat in as little as 5 weeks.. but then again.. some people are monsters and could care less.

So? Many creatures do. But, a heartbeat is involuntary.

It means they are alive.

by your definition. So as long as my heart is beating I am considered 'alive' that does not even meet the medical definition of life. You do not get to enforce your belief system on me, that is one of the tenents of this nation. No one is requiring you get an abortion.

If you take the heart of of the chest it will still beat for a bit. Its due to the cardiac muscle which is capable of conducting electricity.

Sebbydad,

well, when your heart stops beating, it's a cinch you won't be alive for much longer.

As far as me "enforcing my belief system" on you, I could care less about you...you can believe whatever the heck you want to believe. No skin off my nose.

I could care less about you...you can believe whatever the heck you want to believe. No skin off my nose.

The same way right to force human child birth does with their "Bait & Switch". Hell these clowns never put up the money needed to take care of all those children they force into this world.

I gave a woman all the money I had saved for years when she chose to have her baby instead of abort it. I would say I put my money where my mouth is...you?

She was very, very happy that she didn't kill her baby.

sebbydad, I will never force my belief system on anyone, but I WILL fight HARD to make it illegal to brutally end the life of an innocent defenseless child. If that fight is won, then mankind will be better for it, if it is not, I will know I did my best to try to protect these babies - someone has to, their mothers sure aren't doing it.

Would you say that the fact that it is legal when I think it should not be, means that someone is forcing their belief system on me? Thought not.

I gave a woman all the money I had saved for years when she chose to have her baby instead of abort it. I would say I put my money where my mouth is...you?

That is no ways near enough. You who advocate this BS need to pay everything you have until the day you die and any money that is left should go to take care of more of these.

It's not up to anyone other than the two people who unzipped their pants and spread their legs to support a child. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. That is a pretty simple and fool proof solution.

Oh please...

I would say the deadbeat dad should have provided for her and his daughter. He liked getting a little on the side, but just like a lot of losers today, he didn't want the responsibility, and he left first chance he got. I made sure she had a great start with her baby...she was certainly able to provide for her after she had her.

Why would you think that I should bear responsibility for what a loser man has done????? I stepped up for a person I only knew from my work place. How many people do you know that would do that?

Aren't you glad mamma didn't abort you????

I didn't "owe" anyone anything, Yet I provided. How many people do you provide for or help...I would bet the only one you help is you.

It's not up to anyone other than the two people who unzipped their pants and spread their legs to support a child. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. That is a pretty simple and fool proof solution.

Wrong! You want them here you pay the rest of your life and all of the money that is left or shut up.

It is that simple.

Or what??? Where do you get off telling anyone that they should pay all of their money or shut up??

Easy. You and your ilk want something that you DO NOT want to pay for.

The price is very high and it goes on for decades unlike an abortion.

He has no other answers. Here is my fave quote on abortion - it is paraphrased of course:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."

Says it all...hypocrites, each and every one.

Jack - if you don't want to have a baby, keep your pants zipped and your legs closed, pretty simple.

Jack - if you don't want to have a baby, keep your pants zipped and your legs closed, pretty simple.

No that has nothing to do with. If you want all of those so called children pay for the rest of your life and any money that is left from your life, pretty simple.

I am not pro abortion, I am pro choice. You do not get to decide for my daughter whether or not she has to take a pregnancy to completion because you believe that a fertilized egg is a human being.

Whatever...your name says it all...

Okay jack, which is simpler, not getting pregnant to begin with, or getting pregnant, being pregnant 9 months, having the baby then chasing down people to support it for you (which is a lot of the democratic party by the way, lol)? Really - are you going to say your way is simpler? For real? Come on Jack, you are grasping now...

sebbydad,

I didn't see anywhere that I said I was deciding for anyone else...you are all responsible for the choices you make...good, bad, or otherwise.

No! You want to force people into your morality than you pay.

Your way put those poor kids in foster homes, orphanages where they can be abuse, molested by pedophile priest ect. NO THANKS.

I will pay for aborition gladly it is by far better for the whole society.

I would gladly pay for sterilization :o) If you have one kid permanently in the foster system, you should not be allowed to have any more children.

I would gladly pay for sterilization :o) If you have one kid permanently in the foster system, you should not be allowed to have any more children.

That has nothing to do with this. That is eugenics. Once again you want to make the the choice.

You want the choice you pay.

I lived in a foster home. I loved it! An old man next door tried to molest me when I was 9, but he wasn't a priest or a Christian, he was just a creepy old man...I am glad I wasn't aborted.

I agree Youngatheart,

sterilization can cure the problem of unwanted children. For those who do not want children, for those who are abusive, etc...get things snipped...no innocents have to die for that...and the deadbeat dads can still do their thing but not leave innocent babies all around the country, or in the morgue because they are too selfish to care for the pregnant woman and child they decided they didn't want anymore...

You want the choice you pay.

Jack, I believe I said I would gladly pay for sterilization!

Jack, I believe I said I would gladly pay for sterilization!

Pay for all those right to force human childbirth children. Hell it is only now about $300k per forced birth should be NO problem for all those whining here.

No, those people can stop having sex. Geesh..how many times to I have to explain it to you Jack?

Bonnie, don't let Jack get to you, lol. He trolls a lot on these types of topics. I just rarely respond to him unless he actually has something constructive to bring to the conversation....which is to say....I've only replied to him once recently, lol.

He trolls a lot on these types of topics

And you don't ? HA!

Just another whiner who wants to force their will on others.

So my husband and I aren't allowed to have sex just because we don't want to be parents? How realistic is that? C'mon Pro-Lifers, you got have some better solutions than that =)

you got have some better solutions than that =)

Here's one: take responsibility for the consequences of your actions rather than force consequences on your unborn child.

Have you heard of birth control?

Having an abortion can be taking responsibility for your actions just as having the child can be. I know that the consequences of my husband and I's sexual relations are either abortion or parenthood. Just because you don't agree with one doesn't make it any less responsible.

Also, no birth control is 100% effective and I do use a few different methods but I am not niave enough to think an accident will not happen.

mrsrachelm,

I sure haven't seen anything that is constructive...

Seems like a bitter person.

Also, no birth control is 100% effective...

Sure it is...have him get a vasectomy and you get your tubes tied. The two actions combined should all but guarantee that nothing "bad" will happen.

Curious your take on this part of the linked article:

In 2005 a baby boy in Manchester was born alive at 24 weeks after surviving three attempts to abort him. He is now a five-year-old schoolboy.

I know the "kill-kill-kill" chant rang loud and clear in that "mothers" mind as it does yours with respect to this "accident" that is now a schoolboy - as stated previously, I hope she is never allowed to know the child, or at most, that he is one day told the truth about his womb-hotel (sorry...she doesn't earn the title of mother) that she attempted to kill him three times because she never wanted him - he deserves to know the truth about the piece of sh&% that had an "accident" so that he can be raised and share mutual love and respect by people that see him as a blessing, and not a curse.

Having an abortion can be taking responsibility for your actions . . .

If you brought home a puppy who then chewed up your husband’s slippers you could take responsibility by buying him new slippers and shooting the puppy so it doesn’t happen again. That’s taking responsibility, but that doesn’t make it okay. You apparently missed the qualification of not forcing the consequences on the unborn child.

If you brought home a puppy who then chewed up your husband’s slippers you could take responsibility by buying him new slippers and shooting the puppy so it doesn’t happen again. That’s taking responsibility, but that doesn’t make it okay. You apparently missed the qualification of not forcing the consequences on the unborn child.

People actually do that though. I have them as neighbors. But I don't think the analogy is the same. It would be more like when you discover your dog is pregnant, you take her to the vet to get rid of them long before they are born.

Sure it is...have him get a vasectomy and you get your tubes tied. The two actions combined should all but guarantee that nothing "bad" will happen.

Vasectomy is coming and no doctor will tie my tubes until I am in my late twenties. However, I wouldn't expect all men to get snipped and take away their ability to have children just because they want to aviod an unwanted pregnancy. If they want kids they will have to pay to get it reversed.

In response to that article I do not think abortion on demand should be available past fetal viability. Also, if we gave every sperm an egg to fertilize they too would become 5 year old school kids. Just as if we incubate a fertilized egg for 5 months it too would do the same. But just as how we do not give every sperm an egg we do not give every egg 5 months.

Vasectomy is coming and no doctor will tie my tubes until I am in my late twenties

Not true, according to some posts I have seen in the past, Planned Parenthood (this magical and wonderful place for women who don't ever want babies/sarc) will do that for you no questions asked.

One of the women saying how easy it is to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, admited to an unwanted pregnancy at 18. She carried and raised the child but the point is the hipocracy of her stance on preventing unwanted sex, something she was unable to do.

ANd she learned and grew as a person from her previous actions. Good for her, I say. Nothing says hypocrite so fast as someone who thinks that people cannot learn from past mistakes.

But she can't say to others that if they would just keep their legs closed or their zippers up, it's just that easy. She already knows how easy it isn't. That's where the hypocrisy comes in. (I am only using this as an example. My apologies to the actual person.) It would be like a 400 pound leader of a weight loss program "It's easy to lose weight. Don't eat so much."

Nothing says hypocrite so fast as someone who thinks that people cannot learn from past mistakes.

That doesn't even make sense.

Seriously, I never thought of going to Planned Parenthood. I just called doctors in my area. Thank you for the advice I will give them a call about it. But then I have to start saving up for that $2,000. I am saving up currently for a 5 year IUD that should keep a problem from happening until I am 27-28.

It would be like a 400 pound leader of a weight loss program "It's easy to lose weight. Don't eat so much."

And the 400 pound person saying that would STILL be speaking the truth! ROFL Additionally if that 400 pound person is leading AND participating because they have learned from harsh experience...then I still say good for them!

This is where my comment comes into play and makes perfect sense:

Nothing says hypocrite so fast as someone who thinks that people cannot learn from past mistakes.

You, saying that the 400 pound person cannot learn from their own experiences the error of their ways and then go on to try to help other not repeat their mistakes...are being a hypocrite because you are saying that that person has no right to say anything or can not or has not learned anything and changed due to what they learned.

Didn't think I'd have to spell it out like that for you but I understand selective reading and/or reasoning because I see a lot of it from pro-choice advocates. They do it mainly as a way to deflect.

You do know what a hypocrite is, don't you?

You also know that trying to sound smart isn't working for you, right?

Be sure to answer my posts so you can get the last word in.

SW Missouri Mule

One of the women saying how easy it is to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, admited to an unwanted pregnancy at 18. She carried and raised the child but the point is the hipocracy of her stance on preventing unwanted sex, something she was unable to do.

That was me mule. Your statement makes no sense in relation to what we are discussing. First of all, I did make a mistake and I took responsibility and raised that child into a wonderful human being, I did not senselessly and brutally kill her. Again, and I will cap it so you understand, I TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS. What we are discussing is abortion. My stance is that if you can NOT take responsibility for your actions, if you don't want a baby, or you can't at least carry it to term then give the child up for adoption, then keep your legs closed. Yes, I nearly let people talk me into killing her, and I will say that the situation was extremely beneficial because each one of those people are now vehemently opposed to abortion (as am I) because we now KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that that baby inside is a living human being. So next time you accuse someone of being a hypocrite, I suggest you start out by knowing what you are talking about and having all your facts straight.

I didn't use your name so as not to call you out. I was trying to use your example without accusing you. Now that you have challanged I will try to clarify since what I said you have misunderstood.

You did take responsibility for your actions. You chose to give birth and raise the child instead of aborting (or carry to birth and adopting). That is not the hypocrisy. Did you want a baby when you had sex? Seems not since your family urged you to abort. So you say, "then keep your legs closed." If you did not intend to get pregnant, if you did not have sex for the purpose of having a baby, why didn't you keep your legs shut? I am not trying to be mean, to judge or be argumentative. I am saying that it is not that easy. By saying that you took responsibility for your actions, you are saying that you made an error but turned the result into a wonderful positive.

Instead of saying "keep your legs shut" which we know is all but imposible, why not use a more positive approach: "Use protection, practice birth control."

Because birth control is not 100% effective. I stand by what I said - if you are not willing to take responsibility for a life you create don't have sex or have your uterus and fallopian tubes removed (removing testicles also removes sex drive I believe) which is the only fail proof birth control. That is MY stance.

don't have sex or have your uterus and fallopian tubes removed (removing testicles also removes sex drive I believe) which is the only fail proof birth control. That is MY stance.

None of the above is your business any more than a women's choice is your business.

Jack, we have already ascertained that you are just on here to provoke.

It IS ALL OF OUR BUSINESS when innocent helpless children are being brutally killed.

Period. End of story. Nothing anyone says can change that. Period.

Read what's going on in Oklahoma, just the beginning my friends. Protectors of innocent babies are winning the war. If their mommies won't protect them like they are supposed to, someone has to.

Read what's going on in Oklahoma, just the beginning my friends. Protectors of innocent babies are winning the war. If their mommies won't protect them like they are supposed to, someone has to.

It is pure bunk. You and your ilk want to force people to your way and will NOT pay to raise them.

Your in-morality is just disgusting.

It is to bad that we are not allowed to see the beaten and abused children that you have forced into this world because it would make abortion look tame in comparison.

Finally you or so called we have NOT ascertained anything but your own inability to see the major social damage you continue reap upon the world.

But, like all the Catholic Priest who pray on children it is so easy to say sorry which does NOTHING to fix the real problem.

Jack, I have no doubt that if the majority on this thread were FOR abortion, you would be ranting against it. Your comments are wasted on this thread (except those who are grasping to validate the tragedy of what happened to this baby boy) because we have figured you out.

because we have figured you out.

You know nothing about me or my life experiences. Shallow thinking is all you have.

Your thought processes go only to the immediate until one of those children grow up and destroy another life after being abuse in childhood.

It is just one vicious cycle after another that you want to perpetuate.

Your thought processes go only to the immediate

You think it is ok to brutally murder an innocent child because the mother does not want it and you say MY thought processess go only to the immediate? WOW!! Talk about a PERFECT example of hypocrisy. Congratulations Jack, you just proved to everyone here that you are a true hypocrite!

If you had left your legs closed you would not have gotten pregnant when you were having sex with your boyfriend at 18 years old. I say that an abortion in early stage is just as responsible. You are elevating yourself above others. Stand your ground all you want. Your taking responsibility at the time does not make up for your words and actions at this time. If you are a Christian, as you judge, so shall you be judged.

You think it is ok to brutally murder an innocent child because the mother does not want it and you say MYthought processess go only to the immediate?

Poor thinking because it is NOT murder hence your argument is invalid.

Abortion is no different than a mother putting a gun to their child's head and blowing the child's brains out. So should we allow that too Jack?

Abortion is no different than a mother putting a gun to their child's head and blowing the child's brains out. So should we allow that too Jack?

WRONG. Would you like to try again with a different analogy?

You and Scott Roeder have much in common as for an argument but, it did not work for him either.

SW Missouri Mule

If you had left your legs closed you would not have gotten pregnant when you were having sex with your boyfriend at 18 years old.

You are absolutely correct in that statement.

I say that an abortion in early stage is just as responsible.

I say that an abortion is the brutal murder of an innocent baby.

You are elevating yourself above others.

How so? By stating that I know without any doubt an unborn baby is a living being just like you and I? Tell me, how does that elevate me?

Stand your ground all you want. Your taking responsibility at the time does not make up for your words and actions at this time. If you are a Christian, you know to judge as you shall be judged.

I am not judging. Judging is telling someone what their sentence will be for committing a crime. I am stating what I know to be true - an unborn baby is ALIVE at EVERY STAGE, and an abortion kills that child. How is that judging? Not once have you seen me post that "every woman who has an abortion is going to hell", have you? What punishment someone receives or doesn't receive isn't up to me, I have enough of my own to answer for. All I have stated is that it is murder and I will do whatever is within my power to stop abortion from being legal. That's it.

You on the other hand, HAVE judged me. People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.

Because birth control is not 100% effective. I stand by what I said - if you are not willing to take responsibility for a life you create don't have sex or have your uterus and fallopian tubes removed (removing testicles also removes sex drive I believe) which is the only fail proof birth control. That is MY stance

Everyone can not take the kind of responsibility for pregnancy in the way you did. Saying to others 'don't have sex' or 'keep your legs shut' was obviously not possible for you. How can you tell others to do what you could not? Then you go so far as to say that they should have a hysterectomy or have their balls cut off. You don't want to harm/kill innocent babies but you want young adults to permanently damage themselves. I think, no, judge that as one of the most ridiculous and cruel anti-abortion stances I have ever heard. I really feel sorry for you and the twisted view of sex and reproduction.

I think that you being for abortion is cruel as well, so I guess we are "even". I won't say it is ridiculous, because I, unlike you, will say that you are completely entitled to your own opinion.

You are entitled to your own opinion as long as you don't act on it. NOBODY is for abortion. I hate to think how many like you want men to cut off their balls or women to remove their uterus in order to 100% prevent unwanted pregnancy.

It is far far better than allowing a helpless child be killed.

States have been cutting off testicles and pulling tubes for quite some time. I don't see what the big deal would be if you don't want kids or children.

I will probably lie awake tonight and think about what this precious angel was thinking the 20 hours he was clinging to life wondering what happened to that voice he grew to know and love (his mommy) and why she wasn't there taking care of him - cold, hungry and scared. This is the lowest form of depravity and selfishness.

Amen!

what this precious angel was thinking the 20 hours he was clinging to life

I doubt he was thinking at all, festuses do not even have a pain reflex. Do remember your thoughts from being in the womb at 22 weeks gestation, good or bad?

I'll probably lie awake tonight thinking of the actual children who were born into families that didn't want to or couldn't take care of them and are being beaten, starved, raped, or tortured by their heartless parents. There are thousands of them, did you know that? Where is your outrage and heartache for them?

Do remember your thoughts from being in the womb at 22 weeks gestation, good or bad?

The food was good, but the lack of space was a problem :}

Seriously though, just because he can't think like an adult doesn't mean he didn't suffer.

festuses do not even have a pain reflex.

Says who?

I'll probably lie awake tonight thinking of the actual children who were born into families that didn't want to or couldn't take care of them and are being beaten, starved, raped, or tortured by their heartless parents. There are thousands of them, did you know that? Where is your outrage and heartache for them?

Trust me...there's a wealth of outrage there as well. There's enough anger and resentment to go around for all those that feel they can do these things to children (or anyone for that matter).

fetuses do not even have a pain reflex.

Says who?

Um, science. It's a simple test really. Poke a pin in the heel of a baby, or any adult for the matter (this includes mentally challenged people and those who are asleep) - and they will pull their foot away. It's - is there cognition 101 - controlled by the brain stem - one of life's most basic operations.

Poke a pin in my foot, and I guarantee I will feel it! I would knock someone on their butt for doing that to me...just because an infant cannot, does not mean it doesn't hurt.

Yes, a fetus CAN feel pain.

just because an infant cannot, does not mean it doesn't hurt.

Actually, that is exactly what it means. A newborn infant will do it. Unless paralyzed, but a paralyzed person will tell you - they don't feel it.

This is besides the point anyway. I see zealot pro-lifers as wanting to give meaning to their own life - getting behind what appears like a noble cause, when (as I mentioned in my earlier post that you have completely ignored in favor of focusing on pain perception) - there are literally thousands of living, breathing children in the USA right now being starved, raped, beaten, abused -- I don't see people rallying support for them - expressing outrage and waxing poetic over their very REAL plight.

It is so easy to sound so righteous over this topic. It's a lot harder to put your money where your mouth is and turn to the real suffering in the country by children abused as we speak.

there are literally thousands of living, breathing children in the USA right now being starved, raped, beaten, abused -- I don't see people rallying support for them - expressing outrage and waxing poetic over their very REAL plight.

And what exactly are YOU doing to ease the plight of these abused children, doomed? Are you donating YOUR time and resources to helping these children?

It's a lot harder to put your money where your mouth is

When's the last time YOU did?

-------And what exactly are YOU doing to ease the plight of these abused children, doomed? Are you donating YOUR time and resources to helping these children?----------

I volunteer at a crisis nursery where parents can leave their children, no questions asked for up to 72 hours - we provide meals, clothings, homework help, and lots of play. If you're so inclined, I implore you to donate to your own local crisis nursery if you have one - or ours - at http://www.miniobeirne.org

It's the best I can do with my limited resources.

I volunteer at a crisis nursery where parents can leave their children,

Unfortunately we don't have this down here, I help out at my local church with clothing donations and food donations that are distributed to needy children in our areas.

robynlewisTX -

I apologize if I have come across rude. Definitely not my intention. This is such a hot-button, emotional issue for so many people for such a wide variety of reasons.

I should know by now to bite my tongue on these threads - no good ever come of them! I've seen you on the Vine many times and have only known you to be level-headed and compassionate, I apologize again if I have offended you.

And sorry to you, maddad - I wasn't trying to derail your thread.

I'm tapping out now before I really regret something I say!

I've seen you on the Vine many times and have only known you to be level-headed and compassionate,

Wow, that's the first time someone has said that to me :}

I apologize again if I have offended you.

My apologies also doomed.

I also help out wherever I am needed...if someone needs clothes, food, whatever, I do my best to get it together for them...my friends also do the same. I also help by watching children for parents who need someone to watch thier child when they go to work, or are sick, etc...I do anything I am able to do to help people.

My apologies also doomed.

None needed.

We all love babies, right?? =)

We all love babies, right?? =)

Not when they're screaming with colic at 3:00 am *shuddering*

But for the most part...yeah

Youngatheartgrandma, please pay attention to the bolded words:

Rome, Italy (CNN) -- Italian officials are investigating reports that an infant survived an abortion, living for "a whole day" after having been left to die by hospital staff, the Italian Ministry of Health said.

The "premature newborn ... survived an abortion at 22 weeks of pregnancy," the ministry said, citing "media reports." Pregnancy normally lasts about 40 weeks.

"If the news turns out to be true, we are dealing with a very grave case of ... abandonment of a premature newborn, probably also with some form of handicap: an act which is contrary to the sense of human piety and to any medical practice," the ministry said in a statement released Monday, two days after the abortion was performed

The officials are not investigating the incident. They are investigating reports, media reports, news to see if the story is true. So far it has not been verified and it seems not to have been reported to anyone but the news.

I'll probably lie awake tonight thinking of the actual children who were born into families that didn't want to or couldn't take care of them and are being beaten, starved, raped, or tortured by their heartless parents. There are thousands of them, did you know that? Where is your outrage and heartache for them?

Deflection.

SW Missouri Mule-

So typical of a liberal to pick and choose what parts they want everyone to see. Here it is again, in it's entirety. I have also bolded parts - the parts that show they are investigating the INCIDENT.

Rome, Italy (CNN) -- Italian officials are investigating reports that an infant survived an abortion, living for "a whole day" after having been left to die by hospital staff, the Italian Ministry of Health said.

The "premature newborn ... survived an abortion at 22 weeks of pregnancy," the ministry said, citing "media reports." Pregnancy normally lasts about 40 weeks.

"If the news turns out to be true, we are dealing with a very grave case of ... abandonment of a premature newborn, probably also with some form of handicap: an act which is contrary to the sense of human piety and to any medical practice," the ministry said in a statement released Monday, two days after the abortion was performed.

The Rev. Antonio Martello, a hospital chaplain, discovered that the infant was still alive on Sunday, 20 hours after the abortion, according to the assistant bishop of Rossano, where the incident took place.

Martello was praying in front of the infant when he saw that it was breathing, according to the assistant bishop, the Rev. Santo Battaglia.

Martello immediately alerted doctors, who took the baby to a bigger hospital in the nearby town of Consenza, Battaglia said. It died there hours later.

Italian law allows women to have abortions past week 20 of a pregnancy if the fetus appears to show defects, or if the physical or mental health of the mother requires it.

The Roman Catholic Church opposes abortion.

Three separate investigations are looking into the incident.

Local health authorities are holding one inquiry to determine if the mother's health was really at risk, exactly how many weeks pregnant she was, how long the baby lived, and if the doctors were negligent, the head of that investigation told CNN.

That investigation started Monday and is ongoing, its leader, Dr. Arcangelo Fonti, said.

Separately, legal authorities in Rossano are investigating the incident as a possible manslaughter.

Their probe will include an autopsy to determine how developed the baby's lungs were, which should help determine its exact age, a health ministry representative said on behalf of under-secretary Eugenia Roccella, who handles medical-ethical issues for the department.

The health ministry's own investigation will start Monday to determine if abortion law was breached, and will take the findings of the other two probes into account, the ministry representative said.

Why would the baby have been taken to the a bigger hospital if he were not alive?

Why would there be an autopsy if there were not an actual incident or if there were not a suspected crime.

One day, cleft lip and palete, (not) always treatable with surgery, weight 11oz:

By Simon Caldwell
Published: 4:26PM BST 29 Apr 2010

The 22-week infant was found breathing a day after the operation. He died one day later in intensive care at a hospital in the mother's home town of Rossano, in southern Italy.

The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans revealed that the foetus had a cleft lip and palate, according to reports in the Italian media. The condition is treatable with surgery.

The baby - weighing just 11oz - survived the procedure, carried out on Saturday in the Rossano Calabro hospital, but was left by doctors to die.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7652889/Baby-that-survived-botched-abortion-was-rejected-for-cleft-lip-and-palate.html

FOX got the story from CNN who got it from Telegraph UK which is owned by WorldNews. All other news sources were pro-life, Catholic, Conservative, WorldNews, ect... In other words, they were all anti-abortion sites. We know who/what FOX NEWS is and CNN isn't much different. Until I see this story confirmed by a real news source, it will remain anti-choice propaganda.

Why would the baby have been taken to the a bigger hospital if he were not alive?
Why would there be an autopsy if there were not an actual incident or if there were not a suspected crime.

If the story was not true, why would the details be true?

Italian officials are investigating reports

the ministry said, citing "media reports."

"If the news turns out to be true,

If they were citing media reports the ministry must not have been officially informed at the time. See if you can find any updates but be sure to provide the source, please.

For some reason I don't think they'll let me in that group. :-)

Me too!!

It takes a special kind of woman to think of her baby, and not of her own selfish needs.

you got that right! How many others are out there like that? Tim Tebow and others.

My mom could have used a few less kids. Wouldn't matter to me because the soul isn't added till later. Besides, how can you have an opinion if you were never born.

Yes, Tim Tebow, GREAT STORY, and he was just a first round draft pick in the NFL draft. That "parasite" sure turned in to something, didn't he? His mom was advised to abort him for health reasons and she refused (she is alive and well too).

SW,

Seeing as I was born at least entitles me to an opinion. I'm just saying that I'm glad to be born of this body and this life. If I had been aborted, my soul might have ended up in a diiferent body. All I'm saying is that I'm grateful for the life I have.

coloradoan-1141358, fair enough. I am greatful for the opportunities given in this particular life and this particular body. I made a lot of mistakes, had a lot of fun, helped when I could and think I've touched a few lives for the better. I was to one my mother trusted, out of the 8 of us, to follow her will in her dying days. All in all I feel unafraid of death as I have lived a good and honest and giving life. I am saying that my mother was tired and worn when I was born and my brother came six years later. Twenty-five years of bearing children is too long. If birth control had been better then she might have had a better chance.

I, like you, are grateful for the life that I was given. I know that life isn't fair and that there are people a lot less fortunate than I. We were never rich, but there was always an abundance of love in our family. I am not afraid to die either as I believe that we're only on this planet for a blink of an eye in the giant scope of things and I look forward to whatever there is after this life. It sounds like your mom had it pretty tough and it says a lot about you that she had so much faith and trust in you.

I am happy that you and your adopted family found such love. From what I've heard, being rich just means being farther in debt for individual distractions. Living lean means doing more things as a family.

I worry about today's youth. Sometimes when you are given too much, you never learn to appreciate anything.

Sometimes when you are given nothing, you never learn to appreciate anything.

the future does not look to bright, either way.

I remember when we shared with our friends. One girl had adjustable rollerskates (with key) that we took turns with. Another had an easy bake oven. We played stick ball and tag and army. An appliance box was the greatest especially if there was a hill. We had board games that we played for hours. Even kids who were shy could stand by and watch.

Now kids have their electronically equiped bedrooms and no reason to interact with the rest of the family. Some parents buy that stuff to keep the kids out of sight. This financial downturn, recession, depression should make a difference on what people buy and how they but it. Maybe we'll see some return to family activities.

we played tag and army, and elimination (dodgeball on the run). using your imagination was encouraged, not stymied.

CNN ran the story too.

Kill the handicapped so that they're not abused. Nice.

Only if they are a monster will they resent their child. Adoption is always an option. I know a lot of people who adopt only special needs children and they take great care of them!

the youth group at my church is having Gianna Jessen come talk to the kids, she is a saline-abortion survivor (7and 1/2 months); this is a wiki version of her story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Jessen

Anti-Choice: Forcing women to servitude.

Pro Choice: Allowing women to be.

SR-

Pro Life: Have a baby.

Pro Death: Have an abortion.

or go to war, or impose the death penalty.

or go to war, or impose the death penalty.

Didn't catch that in the article. Can you point it out please?

WDH, that's not much of a slogan.

Wear your chastity belts, they were invented long ago for the purpose. Women have said many a time that they do not need the Love of a man except to fulfill the purpose of child bearing.

That is not what chastity belts were invented for. LOL I can't imagine where you got that idea.

Torture Device - Chastity Belt

Wives were often forced to wear chastity belts while their husband were away for a long time (especially the wives of knights or crusaders). It was usually a jealous husband, or sometimes a controlling dad, who made them wear the chastity belt. Chastity belts looked like metal underwear and were worn so wives couldn't have sex while their husbands were away. The reason they are torture devices is because they are humiliating and a lot of women were forced to wear one against their will. A few women did wear chastity belts on purpose, as protection against rape. They were commonly used during the Middle Ages when a husband might be at war for as long as three years.

http://www.kidzworld.com/article/1212-ancient-torture-devices

When I read Missouri Mules's post above I thought that I remembered reading that the stories of female chastity belts had been debunked and a German museum pulled it's collection finding it fraudulent, so I did a little digging and found these.

Turns out that chastity belts were actually more commonly used to prevent unmarried teens (of both sexes) from masturbating!

http://www.ehow.com/about_5486159_history-chastity-belt.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2430118

http://www.chastity-uk.co.uk/History.htm

in case you just want a synopsis - here's a quote from the bbc article:ay Belts are from m

As plausible as it might sound, the chastity belt is not however a medieval invention - the romantic stories outlined in the paragraph above are nothing but a product of the over-active 19th Century imagination. There are, in fact, no genuine chastity belts dating from medieval times: all known 'medieval' chastity belts have been produced in the first half of the 19th Century. These fake-medieval chastity belts are too heavy and the workmanship is too crude, even for medieval standards. The oldest design for a chastity belt that can be taken seriously dates from the 16th Century - but it's just a design, with no real working models believed to have ever been constructed. The concept of a chastity belt itself is a lot older, but it was usually used in poems in a metaphorical sense. According to Dr Eric John Dingwall, who wrote a deeper study on the subject in 1931, 'the chastity belt probably made its first appearance in ordinary use among the Italians of the period of the Renaissance or perhaps somewhat later.'

Most of the 'medieval' chastity belts on display in museums have been tested to confirm their actual age. As a result, the http://www.gnm.de/indexE.htm" target="_top">Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nuremberg (Nürnberg), the http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/" target="_top">Musée Cluny (officially known as Musée National du Moyen Âge, or the Middle Age Museum) in Paris and http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/" target="_top">The British Museum in London have all either removed the chastity belts they had displayed

I believe there may be controversy over this. The first article sited:

MYTHS: The chastity belt was not primarily used by men to force women to remain chaste in the man's absence. This misconception was generated by people of the Victorian era, who told tales of men affixing iron belts on their wives before going off to fight in the Crusades. Based on medieval poetry, it appears that the chastity belt was consensual by both the man and the woman, as a sign of fidelity between them both.

The second link says basically the same. But the third has the use for prevention of rape:

The first written evidence of a chastity belt was recorded by Keyser von Eichstad, a retired solider who compiled a manuscript in 1405 about the art of war and military equipment. In his book "Bellifortis" he included a drawing of a chastity belt (picture below), with the inscription "Est florentinarum hoc bracile dominarum ferreum et durum ab antea sit reseratum" ("breeches of hard Florentine iron that are closed at the front") It is claimed that this chastity belt was worn by the women of Florence, Italy as a method of preventing rape. The Bellifortis manuscript is held in the library of Goettingen University, Germany.

Oddly, this is a sales site but rape and abuse of women has been ripe throughout the ages and no matter if the chastity belt was for control or protection, it is a sad testiment to the lives of women in history.